[Loadstone] Feature wishes, re-issue

Ari Moisio arimo at iki.fi
Tue Jul 1 09:23:14 BST 2008

Hi Shawn

On Mon, 30 Jun 2008, Shawn Kirkpatrick wrote:

> A gps emulator feature would reverse the program, turning it from a client
> into a server. This would be a large complex bit of code with only corner
> case usage.

  Not necessarily. This is basically only one more output modality. There 
already is a continuous loop to read gps input thus it should be no big 
issue to add code to read the relevant data, convert it to nmea sentences 
and send it via bt serial channel.

> This would be the absolute worst way to transfer points between
> other loadstone users, it would kill the point duplicate checking if the
> data were uploaded to point share.

  We are here talking about transferring  few points, not complete 

  If this is an issue there are proprietary extensions in the nmea 
protocol to carry this kind of information between Loadstone 

  Even with checking the point to be transferred, saving the checkpoint 
list, sending it wia bt or ir,  moving the relevant file from inbox to 
importexport and loading it is not trivial for Joe/Jill Average. I also 
afraid one have still to store the  point after locating it with the 
checkpoint feature.

> You may be able to get other navigation
> programs to give you data this way but that's a pretty dirty hack. Depending
> on the program that may be a violation of the license agreement. If so and
> that data ends up on point share then we may be in trouble for that as well.

  There is no data transferred from 3rd party application to Loadstone so 
there should be no legal issues for that matter. The situation is similar 
to if one walks to street corner, asks  3rd navigator nearest streets and 
writes them into Loadstone. Nobody will transfer thousands of points with 
this way and i doubt not with the emulator either. It is also impossible 
to distinguish if the street names are read from street signs, asked from 
passer-by, looked from the 3rd navigator or got from 3rd navigator by 
using emulator.

  On the other hand one can combine PC GPS emulator, braille display 
emulator, a screen reader and application such as Wayfinder Access and 
gather automatically as much data as he/she wants. This is of course 
violation of the licence agreement. Strictly speakin even using the 
vicinities in the WFA migth be a licence agreement violation.

  On the other hand again the public map data available on some parts of 
the world might be same data as used  in 3rd navigators too.

> The only somewhat interesting use you mention is to use this as a bluetooth
> relay so multiple phones could use the receiver. An interesting idea but
> given the bugs with the various bluetooth implementations getting this to
> work right would probably be a nightmare. Again thoe, how often would this
> actually be used? It's probably not common for users to carry multiple
> phones with multiple navigation solutions installed on them.

  I do it almost daily to gather point information to Loadstone. Sometimes 
using two navigator in same phone but usually with two phones.

  Remember there is no publicly availabe free maps for the most parts of 
the world.

  However because this might be a violation of licence agreement i refrain 
to upload any data to any public servers until this issues is cleared out.

> For the use you're trying to make this do you'd probably be better off to
> make your emulator take a loadstone export file and then do all the
> processing you want on the pc. This would also cover the reverse point
> sorting as well. I doubt you'd do this processing on the road but if so then
> a laptop would be the way to go.

  The reverse sorting of points is primarily meant for way to find one's 
way back if he/she gets lost. usually  this means there is no computers 
available immediately.

  Another use for reverse sorting is my habit to proofread the point data 
after the journey and remove unnecessary points.

  maybe i should hire someone to code a thingclient application for the 
phone and implement the navigator in a separate server.  I have used one 
of such application and although a bit slower than all-on-the-phone 
application it worked quite well including real-time information of my 
friend's locations.

  > On Mon, 30 Jun 2008, Ari Moisio wrote:
>> Hi  Shawn
>> On Mon, 30 Jun 2008, Shawn Kirkpatrick wrote:
>>> I'm not sure how you'd list the points in reverse order, how long would this
>>> list be? The limitations of the database engine also would make this process
>>> very time consuming on a large database.
>>  As i mentioned earlier  points can be sorted by  their ID field.  Speed
>> is not an issue here, if one gets lost waiting few seconds would not be an
>> issue, its better to have few deep breatsh anyway.
>>  I really wonder your negative attitude towards the GPS emulator feature.
>> It is after all an application sending data via the bt serial channel. On
>> my emulator there were only GSA,  GGA and  RMC sentences sent roughly once
>> per second. Probably even RMC would be adequate for most navigators but
>> just in case they need  some extra data about the satellite coverage.
>>  This will bring at least three benefits to the LS users:
>> - It is the easiest way to transfer locations between LS and other
>> phone-based navigators including Loadstone.
>> - Same connection could be used to relay the actual GPS stream to enable
>> multiple phones to use the same receiver.
>> - It is extremely cool feature in the world of phone navigators where only
>> way to compete is to count how many million POIs each navigator has on
>> their maps.
>>  Of course this emulator could be run also in the PC but after carrying a
>> typical desktop computer for a few kilometers (and a power extension
>> cable too)  one migth easily think other alternatives too.
>>> Loadstone emulating a gps receiver just isn't going to happen. I don't see
>>> any practical use for this feature. Not to mention the technical problems of
>>> doing this, what exactly would the program send? And how often would this
>>> ever be used? Whatever the usage case for this would be it's probably better
>>> off being done using a pc.
>>> On Mon, 30 Jun 2008, arimo at iki.fi wrote:
>>>> Hi
>>>>  Here are two old feature wishes but a new implementations:
>>>>  I usuallly save points when sitting in the car to both possible find the
>>>> way back if needed or just getting more points.  Because there is usually
>>>> no information about street names i just store a dummy placemarker and
>>>> fill the details later. To make these tasks easier two new features would
>>>> be useful:
>>>> - A listing of points sorted in reverse chronological order. The ID field
>>>> is  a *NIX-type timestamp so this should not be an issue. Even better if
>>>> the relevant date and time is displayed too.
>>>> - The ability to use LS as a GPS receiver emulator. This will make
>>>> recognizing unnamed points with another navigation application much easier
>>>> and faster. Currently i have to manually enter each and every point
>>>> manually to the emulator. I don't like to submit a point database with
>>>> half of the points named only as slashes '/', a current placeholder of
>>>> unknown crossing.
>>>> --
>>>> mr. M01510 & guide Loadstone-GPS
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>> --
>> mr. M01510 & guide Loadstone-GPS
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