[Loadstone] Routes and trips.

Cearbhall O Meadhra cearbhall.omeadhra at idd.ie
Thu Oct 11 18:51:31 BST 2007


Dear Sean,

Indeed, the open street map shows my house! I have registered on their web
site now. How does one get points from this site? Do they have to be copied
down by hand?
 
All the best,
 
 
Cearbhall 
 
"Good design enables - Bad design disables"
 
Tel: 01-2864623 Mob: 087 9922227 Em: cearbhall.omeadhra at projectidd.ie
 

-----Original Message-----
From: loadstone-bounces at loadstone-gps.com
[mailto:loadstone-bounces at loadstone-gps.com] On Behalf Of Shawn Kirkpatrick
Sent: 11 October 2007 01:15
To: loadstone at loadstone-gps.com
Subject: Re: [Loadstone] Routes and trips.

If your source requires payment then it won't work for the point share
database. We currently obtain data from various free sources. At the moment
we're working on importing data from the open street map project. This seems
to contain quite a bit of data so maybe it'll have something for your
country. More and more of this data seems to be coming available so you
never know.

On Thu, 11 Oct 2007, Cearbhall O Meadhra wrote:

> Dear  Sean, Sadly, I have just found out that it is not freely 
> available. If I use he source as I had hoped, it will be necessary to 
> enter into an agreement that the source data will not be uploaded to 
> the point share database.
>
> I don't see how I can manage such an agreement and would welcome your 
> advice. If I use the source there will b a global fee involved that I 
> would have to have paid by a sponsor and this will restrict the users 
> who can avail of it.
>
> Is there a source that you and the team are using at present that can 
> be shared?
>
> All the best,
>
>
> Cearbhall
>
> "Good design enables - Bad design disables"
>
> Tel: 01-2864623 Mob: 087 9922227 Em: cearbhall.omeadhra at projectidd.ie
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: loadstone-bounces at loadstone-gps.com
> [mailto:loadstone-bounces at loadstone-gps.com] On Behalf Of Shawn 
> Kirkpatrick
> Sent: 11 October 2007 00:18
> To: loadstone at loadstone-gps.com
> Subject: Re: [Loadstone] Routes and trips.
>
> Is this source data freely available? If so, then if you sent it to us 
> we could integrate it into the main point share system. Line segments 
> are good, with these the street intercections can be calculated giving 
> you a point on every street corner. This may also turn out to be 
> useful if Loadstone can ever implement a real street mode. The more 
> exact data we can get the better.
>
> On Wed, 10 Oct 2007, Cearbhall O Meadhra wrote:
>
>> Sean,
>>
>> I have found out that my source is in line segments. I can extract 
>> junction information or points along the street as I wish.
>>
>> What other uses were you thinking of?
>>
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>>
>> Cearbhall
>>
>> "Good design enables - Bad design disables"
>>
>> Tel: 01-2864623 Mob: 087 9922227 Em: cearbhall.omeadhra at projectidd.ie
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: loadstone-bounces at loadstone-gps.com
>> [mailto:loadstone-bounces at loadstone-gps.com] On Behalf Of Shawn 
>> Kirkpatrick
>> Sent: 10 October 2007 02:34
>> To: loadstone at loadstone-gps.com
>> Subject: Re: [Loadstone] Routes and trips.
>>
>> It sounds like you have an unusual dataset. Is this street data 
>> actually line segments? If so, then more useful things can be done 
>> with it. The percentage system for naming street points just doesn't 
>> scale propperly. It might work on a street 180m (metres? miles?) long 
>> with only 9 entries but try scaling that up to something like the 
>> transcanada highway that runs a couple thousand kilometres with who 
>> knows how many points and you run in to real problems. Your example 
>> table shows another problem, calculation slippage. The percentage
> increments aren't consistant.
>> This seems to be something different from trip or track mode. This 
>> would be something like a street mode, a way of representing streets.
>> This would be nice but it'll be a rather hard feature to implement I 
>> think. Mainly because of the size of the datasets involved. The phone 
>> just doesn't have the power to process actual street data and do 
>> something useful with it. What we're doing for now is entering all 
>> the line data we have into a database on the pc and then having the 
>> computer calculate where those lines cross. This gives us 
>> intercection
> points and that's proved very useful.
>> If the data you have is or can be turned in to line segments then the 
>> same process could be applied to it.
>>
>> On Tue, 9 Oct 2007, Cearbhall O Meadhra wrote:
>>
>>> Sean,
>>>
>>> I am afraid I may have caused some confusion in my last message. The 
>>> streets are given their percentage identity in the creation of the
>> Loadstone file.
>>> For example, my source of the map data gives me a three column 
>>> spread sheet in excel that contains one street name occurring nine
times.
>>> (The street is 180m long). As each of the point names is thus 
>>> identical, this is not a very useful way to present the point names.
>>> That is why we devised our own system of taking the point names in 
>>> the order in which the source sends them to us and then applying the 
>>> percentage value to the nine entries that were supplied in this 
>>> example. This means that the Loadstone dataset already has the 
>>> streets marked in a series of points identified by increasing 
>>> percentage
> values.
>>>
>>> The point I was making was that if the street is not straight but 
>>> actually looping around in a curve, this sequence of points might 
>>> not be the same as that in which the points are encountered on the
street.
>>> It would be very simple for the user to edit the percentage value on 
>>> each point name using the "point update" feature in loadstone to get 
>>> the right sequence manually as they move along the street. To make 
>>> this easier, I would suggest that the point name be held in 
>>> Loadstone as two cells so that the percentage value is contained in 
>>> a scroll box. We store the total number of increments for each 
>>> street as part of the process of creating the percentage values and 
>>> this could easily be passed over to Loadstone as part of the input 
>>> dataset. Thus the user could scroll through the percentage values 
>>> until the right one was
>> found. Once out of update mode the percentage would stay fixed.
>>>
>>> Here is a sample of the finished table ready for Loadstone:
>>> ------------------
>>> table,point
>>> Name,latitude,longitude,accuracy,satellites,priority,userid,id
>>> "MARTELLO TERRACE, 0%",532072000,-61017300,1,9,0,39208,1129506301
>>> "MARTELLO TERRACE, 13%",532072000,-61014400,1,9,0,39208,1129506302
>>> "MARTELLO TERRACE, 25%",532072000,-61011400,1,9,0,39208,1129506303
>>> "MARTELLO TERRACE, 38%",532070000,-61009000,1,9,0,39208,1129506304
>>> "MARTELLO TERRACE, 50%",532069000,-61007100,1,9,0,39208,1129506305
>>> "MARTELLO TERRACE, 63%",532072000,-61017300,1,9,0,39208,1129506306
>>> "MARTELLO TERRACE, 75%",532073000,-61014700,1,9,0,39208,1129506307
>>> "MARTELLO TERRACE, 88%",532073000,-61011900,1,9,0,39208,1129506308
>>> "MARTELLO TERRACE, 100%",532074000,-61007900,1,9,0,39208,1129506309
>>> "MAYFIELD TERRACE, 0%",531945000,-61069200,1,9,0,39208,1129505600
>>> "MAYFIELD TERRACE, 33%",531943000,-61069000,1,9,0,39208,1129505601
>>> "MAYFIELD TERRACE, 67%",531943000,-61069000,1,9,0,39208,1129505610
>>> "MAYFIELD TERRACE, 100%",531941000,-61068500,1,9,0,39208,1129505611
>>> "MEATH PLACE, 0%",532022000,-61015600,1,9,0,39208,1129506410
>>> "MEATH PLACE, 17%",532020000,-61013800,1,9,0,39208,1129506411
>>> "MEATH PLACE, 33%",532019000,-61013600,1,9,0,39208,1129506416
>>> "MEATH PLACE, 50%",532019000,-61013500,1,9,0,39208,1129506417
>>> "MEATH PLACE, 67%",532019000,-61013300,1,9,0,39208,1129506437
>>> "MEATH PLACE, 83%",532017000,-61012300,1,9,0,39208,1129506438
>>> "MEATH PLACE, 100%",532015000,-61010500,1,9,0,39208,1129506439
>>> ------------
>>>
>>> Does this still seem too complicated?
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>>
>>>
>>> Cearbhall
>>>
>>> "Good design enables - Bad design disables"
>>>
>>> Tel: 01-2864623 Mob: 087 9922227 Em: 
>>> cearbhall.omeadhra at projectidd.ie
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: loadstone-bounces at loadstone-gps.com
>>> [mailto:loadstone-bounces at loadstone-gps.com] On Behalf Of Shawn 
>>> Kirkpatrick
>>> Sent: 09 October 2007 13:48
>>> To: loadstone at loadstone-gps.com
>>> Subject: Re: [Loadstone] Routes and trips.
>>>
>>> At first this system sounds like a good idea but unfortunately would 
>>> be impossible to implement. This is because loadstone has no concept 
>>> of streets, only points. We can actually get street line data for 
>>> north america but the dataset is too big for the phone to process 
>>> effectively. Getting this data for other countries is proving 
>>> difficult to impossible. This means that even if you could figure 
>>> out what street you're on, maybe from intercection crossings, 
>>> there'd be no way of knowing how far along the street you are. Also, 
>>> in an automatic track there's no way to know in advance how many 
>>> points there'll be. If you go over 100 the percentage method breaks 
>>> down. In automatic point naming there'd have to be a method of 
>>> naming points so the user knows they're all related to the same 
>>> route no matter where that route goes. I imagine the point names 
>>> will be pretty generic, probably a number that gets incremented with
each point.
>>> Nothing too complicated since they're just track markers and most of 
>>> them would
>> probably get discarded anyway.
>>> I think the more important system to get working is the ordered
>> checkpoints.
>>>
>>> Once that's in then adding the automatic tracking probably wouldn't 
>>> be too hard since it would pretty much use the same logic.
>>>
>>> On Tue, 9 Oct 2007, Cearbhall O Meadhra wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Sean et al,
>>>>
>>>> I have been following this discussion with keen interest. I think 
>>>> some very good ideas are appearing.
>>>>
>>>> Ronan and I have put together a method of handling POI names when 
>>>> they occur on the same street. We simply add a percentage value to 
>>>> each point name as it progresses logically by longitude or latitude.
>>>> A typical
>>> result would be:
>>>> "main Street 0%", "main Street 10%", "main Street 20%", etc  up to 
>>>> "main Street 100%",.
>>>>
>>>> It is possible that this street is laid out in a circle and so this 
>>>> logical sequence might not be the sequence one would meet while 
>>>> walking from one end of the street to the other. In that case, I 
>>>> would
>>> recommend that the "%"
>>>> value be separated from the rest of the point name as a numeric 
>>>> field that could be edited automatically as recommended in the 
>>>> suggestions below, to be rearranged according to the sequence in 
>>>> which they occur to
>>> the pedestrian.
>>>> Of course this would mean that the system must know the increments 
>>>> of the percentage values so that the correct ones are maintained 
>>>> but I think that would be easy enough to manage.
>>>>
>>>> The value of using the percentage as an incremental identifier is 
>>>> that it allows a universal method that gives a sense of the 
>>>> location of the walker in relation to the beginning and end of the 
>>>> street while giving a unique ID to the point of interest.
>>>>
>>>> Any comments?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> All the best,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cearbhall
>>>>
>>>> "Good design enables - Bad design disables"
>>>>
>>>> Tel: 01-2864623 Mob: 087 9922227 Em:
>>>> cearbhall.omeadhra at projectidd.ie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: loadstone-bounces at loadstone-gps.com
>>>> [mailto:loadstone-bounces at loadstone-gps.com] On Behalf Of Dave 
>>>> Mielke
>>>> Sent: 09 October 2007 03:19
>>>> To: loadstone at loadstone-gps.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [Loadstone] Routes and trips.
>>>>
>>>> [quoted lines by Shawn Kirkpatrick on 2007/10/08 at 17:01 -0700]
>>>>
>>>>> They're a list stored in memory. This avoids having to do any 
>>>>> lookups using the database engine.
>>>>
>>>> i believe this is a good thing for features such as these. Here are 
>>>> some
>>>> suggestions:
>>>>
>>>> I see a tracked or recorded trip and a user-defined route as being 
>>>> the same thing except for how the data is entered. In both cases 
>>>> one wants to end up with an ordered list of checkpoints. That's 
>>>> what loadstone already has. To make these features work, therefore, 
>>>> I think there are four features which need to be added.
>>>>
>>>> First: Regardless of how the data is entered, both features need 
>>>> the currently loaded checkpoint list to be editable. This means 
>>>> that there needs to be a way to bring up the list of checkpoints, 
>>>> and for each item to have options like rename, move (up or down 
>>>> within the list), delete, "go to" (see second feature) to select 
>>>> the next point, and "explore" (see fourth feature) to find out 
>>>> what's near by. The "explore" function would probably be more 
>>>> useful if it only considered
>>> unchecked points, i.e. points not on the route.
>>>>
>>>> Second: Regardless of how the data is entered, there needs to be a 
>>>> way to activate the currently loaded checkpoint list as a rrute. By 
>>>> default, the next checkpoint to go to would be the first one in the 
>>>> list, although the user could use the "go to" function (see first
>>>> feature) to tell loadstone where he actually is on the route.
>>>> Loadstone would only monitor the next checkpoint (the selected 
>>>> item) until the user gets there, at which time it'd to an implicit "go
to"
>>>> to the next item in the list. It could even warn the user if he's 
>>>> moving
>>> away from the point.
>>>>
>>>> Third: Defining a route is probably as simple as adding a point to 
>>>> the end of the currently loaded checkpoint list whenever it's checked.
>>>> That's probably already the way it's done. A useful enhancement, 
>>>> though, would be the ability to check a point while it's being 
>>>> defined. Adding this to the save point submenu would be convenient.
>>>>
>>>> Fourth: For recording a trip it needs to be possible to both 
>>>> automatically and manually add points. Automatic points clearly 
>>>> need to be added each time the user changes direction, but should 
>>>> probably also be added at a regular time interval even if the user 
>>>> doesn't change direction. The name for an automatically added point 
>>>> should begin with the word "auto", and include the time it was 
>>>> added as well as the direction in which the user was moving (the 
>>>> new direction if a change). This information, in conjuction with 
>>>> the
> "explore"
>>>> option (see first feature) will help the user later when he goes 
>>>> through the points to give them more meaningful names. A manually 
>>>> added point should have a similar default name except that it 
>>>> should begin with "user" rather than "auto", but should also allow 
>>>> the user to immediately assign a more meaningful name.
>>>>
>>>> That's my initial proposal in order to get some discussion going.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Dave Mielke           | 2213 Fox Crescent | I believe that the Bible is
>>> the
>>>> Phone: 1-613-726-0014 | Ottawa, Ontario   | Word of God. Please contact
>> me
>>>> EMail: dave at mielke.cc | Canada  K2A 1H7   | if you're concerned about
>>> Hell.
>>>> http://FamilyRadio.com/                   | http://Mielke.cc/bible/
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