[Loadstone] Routes and trips.

Cearbhall O Meadhra cearbhall.omeadhra at idd.ie
Wed Oct 10 15:51:08 BST 2007


I believe that the important thing is that Loadstone provides only what we
need and not anything that is surplus to requirements. 

Our thinking in using the percentage increment along the street is to enable
a person to tell where they are in an unfamiliar street. Later, when they
become familiar with a street, their own POIs will take over  and the
percentage ID will cease to be important.

All the best,
 
 
Cearbhall 
 
"Good design enables - Bad design disables"
 
Tel: 01-2864623 Mob: 087 9922227 Em: cearbhall.omeadhra at projectidd.ie
 

-----Original Message-----
From: loadstone-bounces at loadstone-gps.com
[mailto:loadstone-bounces at loadstone-gps.com] On Behalf Of Przemyslaw
Rogalski
Sent: 10 October 2007 13:57
To: loadstone at loadstone-gps.com
Subject: Re: [Loadstone] Routes and trips.

I don't find percentage values quite useful for a long term. It doesn't
relly help.
For me the most important is to precisely add a POI to the database, know
where I am (get a direction and distance), know where I should turn and if
I'm going in a right way to my destination; all comes down to the fact that
navigation software "remembers" (or I make it remember) how I was going
(turn by turn), so that I would use this information any time.
Loadstone is the best for me, even now and its really good project!
----- Wiadomość oryginalna -----
Od: "Shawn Kirkpatrick" <shawn at odyssey.cm.nu>
Do: <loadstone at loadstone-gps.com>
Wysłano: 10 października 2007 14:11
Temat: Re: [Loadstone] Routes and trips.


>A line segment is what the big map data providers use to represent streets.

> Maybe Shane can comment more on this since he works with the database but
my 
> understanding of it is there's a different line segment every time the 
> street changes direction. It sounds like the data you have might be the 
> beginnings of line segments or maybe could be extracted into line
segments. 
> If so, this is more useful than points since rather than just markers
along 
> a street you could have street intercections calculated. This would be
much 
> easier to use since people know street intercections but a percentage
value 
> along a street has no common standard of refference.
> If loadstone can ever have a street mode using line segments I doubt that 
> each segment would have a name. The most important part would be to know 
> what street you're on and what direction you're going. If you needed to 
> figure out how far along a street you are that could be calculated as a 
> distance.
> Getting any of this to happen is easier said than done mainly because of 
> limitations of the phones database engine.
> 
> On Wed, 10 Oct 2007, Cearbhall O Meadhra wrote:
> 
>> Sean,
>>
>> Thank you for your comments.
>>
>> I am not familiar with the term "line segments" what are they?
>>
>> This data was extracted by a manual process as an experiment while we
were
>> working out how to manipulate the point data. That might explain why the
>> intervals are not precisely 20% in the example. This is an important
>> consideration and we would need to check the source to see if the points
can
>> be taken more precisely.
>>
>> The source comes to me as three elements: the point name, longitude and
>> latitude. No other information is given. If a line segment would be
useful
>> then I would be happy to see if we can devise it when I understand
exactly
>> what it is.
>>
>> We calculate the percentage by dividing the number of entries having the
>> same point name into 100. So, a highway of say 4,500 points would have
the
>> increment "0.022%", "0.044%", "0.066%" ..... The purpose of the increment
is
>> to give the point name a unique quality and a sense of where it is
located
>> on the street.
>>
>> Please let me know what a line segment is.
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>>
>> Cearbhall
>>
>> "Good design enables - Bad design disables"
>>
>> Tel: 01-2864623 Mob: 087 9922227 Em: cearbhall.omeadhra at projectidd.ie
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: loadstone-bounces at loadstone-gps.com
>> [mailto:loadstone-bounces at loadstone-gps.com] On Behalf Of Shawn
Kirkpatrick
>> Sent: 10 October 2007 02:34
>> To: loadstone at loadstone-gps.com
>> Subject: Re: [Loadstone] Routes and trips.
>>
>> It sounds like you have an unusual dataset. Is this street data actually
>> line segments? If so, then more useful things can be done with it. The
>> percentage system for naming street points just doesn't scale propperly.
It
>> might work on a street 180m (metres? miles?) long with only 9 entries but
>> try scaling that up to something like the transcanada highway that runs a
>> couple thousand kilometres with who knows how many points and you run in
to
>> real problems. Your example table shows another problem, calculation
>> slippage. The percentage increments aren't consistant.
>> This seems to be something different from trip or track mode. This would
be
>> something like a street mode, a way of representing streets. This would
be
>> nice but it'll be a rather hard feature to implement I think. Mainly
because
>> of the size of the datasets involved. The phone just doesn't have the
power
>> to process actual street data and do something useful with it. What we're
>> doing for now is entering all the line data we have into a database on
the
>> pc and then having the computer calculate where those lines cross. This
>> gives us intercection points and that's proved very useful.
>> If the data you have is or can be turned in to line segments then the
same
>> process could be applied to it.
>>
>> On Tue, 9 Oct 2007, Cearbhall O Meadhra wrote:
>>
>>> Sean,
>>>
>>> I am afraid I may have caused some confusion in my last message. The
>>> streets are given their percentage identity in the creation of the
>> Loadstone file.
>>> For example, my source of the map data gives me a three column spread
>>> sheet in excel that contains one street name occurring nine times.
>>> (The street is 180m long). As each of the point names is thus
>>> identical, this is not a very useful way to present the point names.
>>> That is why we devised our own system of taking the point names in the
>>> order in which the source sends them to us and then applying the
>>> percentage value to the nine entries that were supplied in this
>>> example. This means that the Loadstone dataset already has the streets
>>> marked in a series of points identified by increasing percentage values.
>>>
>>> The point I was making was that if the street is not straight but
>>> actually looping around in a curve, this sequence of points might not
>>> be the same as that in which the points are encountered on the street.
>>> It would be very simple for the user to edit the percentage value on
>>> each point name using the "point update" feature in loadstone to get
>>> the right sequence manually as they move along the street. To make
>>> this easier, I would suggest that the point name be held in Loadstone
>>> as two cells so that the percentage value is contained in a scroll
>>> box. We store the total number of increments for each street as part
>>> of the process of creating the percentage values and this could easily
>>> be passed over to Loadstone as part of the input dataset. Thus the
>>> user could scroll through the percentage values until the right one was
>> found. Once out of update mode the percentage would stay fixed.
>>>
>>> Here is a sample of the finished table ready for Loadstone:
>>> ------------------
>>> table,point
>>> Name,latitude,longitude,accuracy,satellites,priority,userid,id
>>> "MARTELLO TERRACE, 0%",532072000,-61017300,1,9,0,39208,1129506301
>>> "MARTELLO TERRACE, 13%",532072000,-61014400,1,9,0,39208,1129506302
>>> "MARTELLO TERRACE, 25%",532072000,-61011400,1,9,0,39208,1129506303
>>> "MARTELLO TERRACE, 38%",532070000,-61009000,1,9,0,39208,1129506304
>>> "MARTELLO TERRACE, 50%",532069000,-61007100,1,9,0,39208,1129506305
>>> "MARTELLO TERRACE, 63%",532072000,-61017300,1,9,0,39208,1129506306
>>> "MARTELLO TERRACE, 75%",532073000,-61014700,1,9,0,39208,1129506307
>>> "MARTELLO TERRACE, 88%",532073000,-61011900,1,9,0,39208,1129506308
>>> "MARTELLO TERRACE, 100%",532074000,-61007900,1,9,0,39208,1129506309
>>> "MAYFIELD TERRACE, 0%",531945000,-61069200,1,9,0,39208,1129505600
>>> "MAYFIELD TERRACE, 33%",531943000,-61069000,1,9,0,39208,1129505601
>>> "MAYFIELD TERRACE, 67%",531943000,-61069000,1,9,0,39208,1129505610
>>> "MAYFIELD TERRACE, 100%",531941000,-61068500,1,9,0,39208,1129505611
>>> "MEATH PLACE, 0%",532022000,-61015600,1,9,0,39208,1129506410
>>> "MEATH PLACE, 17%",532020000,-61013800,1,9,0,39208,1129506411
>>> "MEATH PLACE, 33%",532019000,-61013600,1,9,0,39208,1129506416
>>> "MEATH PLACE, 50%",532019000,-61013500,1,9,0,39208,1129506417
>>> "MEATH PLACE, 67%",532019000,-61013300,1,9,0,39208,1129506437
>>> "MEATH PLACE, 83%",532017000,-61012300,1,9,0,39208,1129506438
>>> "MEATH PLACE, 100%",532015000,-61010500,1,9,0,39208,1129506439
>>> ------------
>>>
>>> Does this still seem too complicated?
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>>
>>>
>>> Cearbhall
>>>
>>> "Good design enables - Bad design disables"
>>>
>>> Tel: 01-2864623 Mob: 087 9922227 Em: cearbhall.omeadhra at projectidd.ie
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: loadstone-bounces at loadstone-gps.com
>>> [mailto:loadstone-bounces at loadstone-gps.com] On Behalf Of Shawn
>>> Kirkpatrick
>>> Sent: 09 October 2007 13:48
>>> To: loadstone at loadstone-gps.com
>>> Subject: Re: [Loadstone] Routes and trips.
>>>
>>> At first this system sounds like a good idea but unfortunately would
>>> be impossible to implement. This is because loadstone has no concept
>>> of streets, only points. We can actually get street line data for
>>> north america but the dataset is too big for the phone to process
>>> effectively. Getting this data for other countries is proving
>>> difficult to impossible. This means that even if you could figure out
>>> what street you're on, maybe from intercection crossings, there'd be
>>> no way of knowing how far along the street you are. Also, in an
>>> automatic track there's no way to know in advance how many points
>>> there'll be. If you go over 100 the percentage method breaks down. In
>>> automatic point naming there'd have to be a method of naming points so
>>> the user knows they're all related to the same route no matter where
>>> that route goes. I imagine the point names will be pretty generic,
>>> probably a number that gets incremented with each point. Nothing too
>>> complicated since they're just track markers and most of them would
>> probably get discarded anyway.
>>> I think the more important system to get working is the ordered
>> checkpoints.
>>>
>>> Once that's in then adding the automatic tracking probably wouldn't be
>>> too hard since it would pretty much use the same logic.
>>>
>>> On Tue, 9 Oct 2007, Cearbhall O Meadhra wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Sean et al,
>>>>
>>>> I have been following this discussion with keen interest. I think
>>>> some very good ideas are appearing.
>>>>
>>>> Ronan and I have put together a method of handling POI names when
>>>> they occur on the same street. We simply add a percentage value to
>>>> each point name as it progresses logically by longitude or latitude.
>>>> A typical
>>> result would be:
>>>> "main Street 0%", "main Street 10%", "main Street 20%", etc  up to
>>>> "main Street 100%",.
>>>>
>>>> It is possible that this street is laid out in a circle and so this
>>>> logical sequence might not be the sequence one would meet while
>>>> walking from one end of the street to the other. In that case, I
>>>> would
>>> recommend that the "%"
>>>> value be separated from the rest of the point name as a numeric field
>>>> that could be edited automatically as recommended in the suggestions
>>>> below, to be rearranged according to the sequence in which they occur
>>>> to
>>> the pedestrian.
>>>> Of course this would mean that the system must know the increments of
>>>> the percentage values so that the correct ones are maintained but I
>>>> think that would be easy enough to manage.
>>>>
>>>> The value of using the percentage as an incremental identifier is
>>>> that it allows a universal method that gives a sense of the location
>>>> of the walker in relation to the beginning and end of the street
>>>> while giving a unique ID to the point of interest.
>>>>
>>>> Any comments?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> All the best,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cearbhall
>>>>
>>>> "Good design enables - Bad design disables"
>>>>
>>>> Tel: 01-2864623 Mob: 087 9922227 Em: cearbhall.omeadhra at projectidd.ie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: loadstone-bounces at loadstone-gps.com
>>>> [mailto:loadstone-bounces at loadstone-gps.com] On Behalf Of Dave Mielke
>>>> Sent: 09 October 2007 03:19
>>>> To: loadstone at loadstone-gps.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [Loadstone] Routes and trips.
>>>>
>>>> [quoted lines by Shawn Kirkpatrick on 2007/10/08 at 17:01 -0700]
>>>>
>>>>> They're a list stored in memory. This avoids having to do any
>>>>> lookups using the database engine.
>>>>
>>>> i believe this is a good thing for features such as these. Here are
>>>> some
>>>> suggestions:
>>>>
>>>> I see a tracked or recorded trip and a user-defined route as being
>>>> the same thing except for how the data is entered. In both cases one
>>>> wants to end up with an ordered list of checkpoints. That's what
>>>> loadstone already has. To make these features work, therefore, I
>>>> think there are four features which need to be added.
>>>>
>>>> First: Regardless of how the data is entered, both features need the
>>>> currently loaded checkpoint list to be editable. This means that
>>>> there needs to be a way to bring up the list of checkpoints, and for
>>>> each item to have options like rename, move (up or down within the
>>>> list), delete, "go to" (see second feature) to select the next point,
>>>> and "explore" (see fourth feature) to find out what's near by. The
>>>> "explore" function would probably be more useful if it only
>>>> considered
>>> unchecked points, i.e. points not on the route.
>>>>
>>>> Second: Regardless of how the data is entered, there needs to be a
>>>> way to activate the currently loaded checkpoint list as a rrute. By
>>>> default, the next checkpoint to go to would be the first one in the
>>>> list, although the user could use the "go to" function (see first
>>>> feature) to tell loadstone where he actually is on the route.
>>>> Loadstone would only monitor the next checkpoint (the selected item)
>>>> until the user gets there, at which time it'd to an implicit "go to"
>>>> to the next item in the list. It could even warn the user if he's
>>>> moving
>>> away from the point.
>>>>
>>>> Third: Defining a route is probably as simple as adding a point to
>>>> the end of the currently loaded checkpoint list whenever it's checked.
>>>> That's probably already the way it's done. A useful enhancement,
>>>> though, would be the ability to check a point while it's being
>>>> defined. Adding this to the save point submenu would be convenient.
>>>>
>>>> Fourth: For recording a trip it needs to be possible to both
>>>> automatically and manually add points. Automatic points clearly need
>>>> to be added each time the user changes direction, but should probably
>>>> also be added at a regular time interval even if the user doesn't
>>>> change direction. The name for an automatically added point should
>>>> begin with the word "auto", and include the time it was added as well
>>>> as the direction in which the user was moving (the new direction if a
>>>> change). This information, in conjuction with the "explore"
>>>> option (see first feature) will help the user later when he goes
>>>> through the points to give them more meaningful names. A manually
>>>> added point should have a similar default name except that it should
>>>> begin with "user" rather than "auto", but should also allow the user
>>>> to immediately assign a more meaningful name.
>>>>
>>>> That's my initial proposal in order to get some discussion going.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Dave Mielke           | 2213 Fox Crescent | I believe that the Bible is
>>> the
>>>> Phone: 1-613-726-0014 | Ottawa, Ontario   | Word of God. Please contact
>> me
>>>> EMail: dave at mielke.cc | Canada  K2A 1H7   | if you're concerned about
>>> Hell.
>>>> http://FamilyRadio.com/                   | http://Mielke.cc/bible/
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