[Loadstone] Routes and trips.

Przemysław Rogalski Rogalski at o2.pl
Wed Oct 10 13:56:38 BST 2007


I don't find percentage values quite useful for a long term. It doesn't relly help.
For me the most important is to precisely add a POI to the database, know where I am (get a direction and distance), know where I should turn and if I'm going in a right way to my destination; all comes down to the fact that navigation software "remembers" (or I make it remember) how I was going (turn by turn), so that I would use this information any time.
Loadstone is the best for me, even now and its really good project!
----- Wiadomość oryginalna ----- 
Od: "Shawn Kirkpatrick" <shawn at odyssey.cm.nu>
Do: <loadstone at loadstone-gps.com>
Wysłano: 10 października 2007 14:11
Temat: Re: [Loadstone] Routes and trips.


>A line segment is what the big map data providers use to represent streets. 
> Maybe Shane can comment more on this since he works with the database but my 
> understanding of it is there's a different line segment every time the 
> street changes direction. It sounds like the data you have might be the 
> beginnings of line segments or maybe could be extracted into line segments. 
> If so, this is more useful than points since rather than just markers along 
> a street you could have street intercections calculated. This would be much 
> easier to use since people know street intercections but a percentage value 
> along a street has no common standard of refference.
> If loadstone can ever have a street mode using line segments I doubt that 
> each segment would have a name. The most important part would be to know 
> what street you're on and what direction you're going. If you needed to 
> figure out how far along a street you are that could be calculated as a 
> distance.
> Getting any of this to happen is easier said than done mainly because of 
> limitations of the phones database engine.
> 
> On Wed, 10 Oct 2007, Cearbhall O Meadhra wrote:
> 
>> Sean,
>>
>> Thank you for your comments.
>>
>> I am not familiar with the term "line segments" what are they?
>>
>> This data was extracted by a manual process as an experiment while we were
>> working out how to manipulate the point data. That might explain why the
>> intervals are not precisely 20% in the example. This is an important
>> consideration and we would need to check the source to see if the points can
>> be taken more precisely.
>>
>> The source comes to me as three elements: the point name, longitude and
>> latitude. No other information is given. If a line segment would be useful
>> then I would be happy to see if we can devise it when I understand exactly
>> what it is.
>>
>> We calculate the percentage by dividing the number of entries having the
>> same point name into 100. So, a highway of say 4,500 points would have the
>> increment "0.022%", "0.044%", "0.066%" ..... The purpose of the increment is
>> to give the point name a unique quality and a sense of where it is located
>> on the street.
>>
>> Please let me know what a line segment is.
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>>
>> Cearbhall
>>
>> "Good design enables - Bad design disables"
>>
>> Tel: 01-2864623 Mob: 087 9922227 Em: cearbhall.omeadhra at projectidd.ie
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: loadstone-bounces at loadstone-gps.com
>> [mailto:loadstone-bounces at loadstone-gps.com] On Behalf Of Shawn Kirkpatrick
>> Sent: 10 October 2007 02:34
>> To: loadstone at loadstone-gps.com
>> Subject: Re: [Loadstone] Routes and trips.
>>
>> It sounds like you have an unusual dataset. Is this street data actually
>> line segments? If so, then more useful things can be done with it. The
>> percentage system for naming street points just doesn't scale propperly. It
>> might work on a street 180m (metres? miles?) long with only 9 entries but
>> try scaling that up to something like the transcanada highway that runs a
>> couple thousand kilometres with who knows how many points and you run in to
>> real problems. Your example table shows another problem, calculation
>> slippage. The percentage increments aren't consistant.
>> This seems to be something different from trip or track mode. This would be
>> something like a street mode, a way of representing streets. This would be
>> nice but it'll be a rather hard feature to implement I think. Mainly because
>> of the size of the datasets involved. The phone just doesn't have the power
>> to process actual street data and do something useful with it. What we're
>> doing for now is entering all the line data we have into a database on the
>> pc and then having the computer calculate where those lines cross. This
>> gives us intercection points and that's proved very useful.
>> If the data you have is or can be turned in to line segments then the same
>> process could be applied to it.
>>
>> On Tue, 9 Oct 2007, Cearbhall O Meadhra wrote:
>>
>>> Sean,
>>>
>>> I am afraid I may have caused some confusion in my last message. The
>>> streets are given their percentage identity in the creation of the
>> Loadstone file.
>>> For example, my source of the map data gives me a three column spread
>>> sheet in excel that contains one street name occurring nine times.
>>> (The street is 180m long). As each of the point names is thus
>>> identical, this is not a very useful way to present the point names.
>>> That is why we devised our own system of taking the point names in the
>>> order in which the source sends them to us and then applying the
>>> percentage value to the nine entries that were supplied in this
>>> example. This means that the Loadstone dataset already has the streets
>>> marked in a series of points identified by increasing percentage values.
>>>
>>> The point I was making was that if the street is not straight but
>>> actually looping around in a curve, this sequence of points might not
>>> be the same as that in which the points are encountered on the street.
>>> It would be very simple for the user to edit the percentage value on
>>> each point name using the "point update" feature in loadstone to get
>>> the right sequence manually as they move along the street. To make
>>> this easier, I would suggest that the point name be held in Loadstone
>>> as two cells so that the percentage value is contained in a scroll
>>> box. We store the total number of increments for each street as part
>>> of the process of creating the percentage values and this could easily
>>> be passed over to Loadstone as part of the input dataset. Thus the
>>> user could scroll through the percentage values until the right one was
>> found. Once out of update mode the percentage would stay fixed.
>>>
>>> Here is a sample of the finished table ready for Loadstone:
>>> ------------------
>>> table,point
>>> Name,latitude,longitude,accuracy,satellites,priority,userid,id
>>> "MARTELLO TERRACE, 0%",532072000,-61017300,1,9,0,39208,1129506301
>>> "MARTELLO TERRACE, 13%",532072000,-61014400,1,9,0,39208,1129506302
>>> "MARTELLO TERRACE, 25%",532072000,-61011400,1,9,0,39208,1129506303
>>> "MARTELLO TERRACE, 38%",532070000,-61009000,1,9,0,39208,1129506304
>>> "MARTELLO TERRACE, 50%",532069000,-61007100,1,9,0,39208,1129506305
>>> "MARTELLO TERRACE, 63%",532072000,-61017300,1,9,0,39208,1129506306
>>> "MARTELLO TERRACE, 75%",532073000,-61014700,1,9,0,39208,1129506307
>>> "MARTELLO TERRACE, 88%",532073000,-61011900,1,9,0,39208,1129506308
>>> "MARTELLO TERRACE, 100%",532074000,-61007900,1,9,0,39208,1129506309
>>> "MAYFIELD TERRACE, 0%",531945000,-61069200,1,9,0,39208,1129505600
>>> "MAYFIELD TERRACE, 33%",531943000,-61069000,1,9,0,39208,1129505601
>>> "MAYFIELD TERRACE, 67%",531943000,-61069000,1,9,0,39208,1129505610
>>> "MAYFIELD TERRACE, 100%",531941000,-61068500,1,9,0,39208,1129505611
>>> "MEATH PLACE, 0%",532022000,-61015600,1,9,0,39208,1129506410
>>> "MEATH PLACE, 17%",532020000,-61013800,1,9,0,39208,1129506411
>>> "MEATH PLACE, 33%",532019000,-61013600,1,9,0,39208,1129506416
>>> "MEATH PLACE, 50%",532019000,-61013500,1,9,0,39208,1129506417
>>> "MEATH PLACE, 67%",532019000,-61013300,1,9,0,39208,1129506437
>>> "MEATH PLACE, 83%",532017000,-61012300,1,9,0,39208,1129506438
>>> "MEATH PLACE, 100%",532015000,-61010500,1,9,0,39208,1129506439
>>> ------------
>>>
>>> Does this still seem too complicated?
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>>
>>>
>>> Cearbhall
>>>
>>> "Good design enables - Bad design disables"
>>>
>>> Tel: 01-2864623 Mob: 087 9922227 Em: cearbhall.omeadhra at projectidd.ie
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: loadstone-bounces at loadstone-gps.com
>>> [mailto:loadstone-bounces at loadstone-gps.com] On Behalf Of Shawn
>>> Kirkpatrick
>>> Sent: 09 October 2007 13:48
>>> To: loadstone at loadstone-gps.com
>>> Subject: Re: [Loadstone] Routes and trips.
>>>
>>> At first this system sounds like a good idea but unfortunately would
>>> be impossible to implement. This is because loadstone has no concept
>>> of streets, only points. We can actually get street line data for
>>> north america but the dataset is too big for the phone to process
>>> effectively. Getting this data for other countries is proving
>>> difficult to impossible. This means that even if you could figure out
>>> what street you're on, maybe from intercection crossings, there'd be
>>> no way of knowing how far along the street you are. Also, in an
>>> automatic track there's no way to know in advance how many points
>>> there'll be. If you go over 100 the percentage method breaks down. In
>>> automatic point naming there'd have to be a method of naming points so
>>> the user knows they're all related to the same route no matter where
>>> that route goes. I imagine the point names will be pretty generic,
>>> probably a number that gets incremented with each point. Nothing too
>>> complicated since they're just track markers and most of them would
>> probably get discarded anyway.
>>> I think the more important system to get working is the ordered
>> checkpoints.
>>>
>>> Once that's in then adding the automatic tracking probably wouldn't be
>>> too hard since it would pretty much use the same logic.
>>>
>>> On Tue, 9 Oct 2007, Cearbhall O Meadhra wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Sean et al,
>>>>
>>>> I have been following this discussion with keen interest. I think
>>>> some very good ideas are appearing.
>>>>
>>>> Ronan and I have put together a method of handling POI names when
>>>> they occur on the same street. We simply add a percentage value to
>>>> each point name as it progresses logically by longitude or latitude.
>>>> A typical
>>> result would be:
>>>> "main Street 0%", "main Street 10%", "main Street 20%", etc  up to
>>>> "main Street 100%",.
>>>>
>>>> It is possible that this street is laid out in a circle and so this
>>>> logical sequence might not be the sequence one would meet while
>>>> walking from one end of the street to the other. In that case, I
>>>> would
>>> recommend that the "%"
>>>> value be separated from the rest of the point name as a numeric field
>>>> that could be edited automatically as recommended in the suggestions
>>>> below, to be rearranged according to the sequence in which they occur
>>>> to
>>> the pedestrian.
>>>> Of course this would mean that the system must know the increments of
>>>> the percentage values so that the correct ones are maintained but I
>>>> think that would be easy enough to manage.
>>>>
>>>> The value of using the percentage as an incremental identifier is
>>>> that it allows a universal method that gives a sense of the location
>>>> of the walker in relation to the beginning and end of the street
>>>> while giving a unique ID to the point of interest.
>>>>
>>>> Any comments?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> All the best,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cearbhall
>>>>
>>>> "Good design enables - Bad design disables"
>>>>
>>>> Tel: 01-2864623 Mob: 087 9922227 Em: cearbhall.omeadhra at projectidd.ie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: loadstone-bounces at loadstone-gps.com
>>>> [mailto:loadstone-bounces at loadstone-gps.com] On Behalf Of Dave Mielke
>>>> Sent: 09 October 2007 03:19
>>>> To: loadstone at loadstone-gps.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [Loadstone] Routes and trips.
>>>>
>>>> [quoted lines by Shawn Kirkpatrick on 2007/10/08 at 17:01 -0700]
>>>>
>>>>> They're a list stored in memory. This avoids having to do any
>>>>> lookups using the database engine.
>>>>
>>>> i believe this is a good thing for features such as these. Here are
>>>> some
>>>> suggestions:
>>>>
>>>> I see a tracked or recorded trip and a user-defined route as being
>>>> the same thing except for how the data is entered. In both cases one
>>>> wants to end up with an ordered list of checkpoints. That's what
>>>> loadstone already has. To make these features work, therefore, I
>>>> think there are four features which need to be added.
>>>>
>>>> First: Regardless of how the data is entered, both features need the
>>>> currently loaded checkpoint list to be editable. This means that
>>>> there needs to be a way to bring up the list of checkpoints, and for
>>>> each item to have options like rename, move (up or down within the
>>>> list), delete, "go to" (see second feature) to select the next point,
>>>> and "explore" (see fourth feature) to find out what's near by. The
>>>> "explore" function would probably be more useful if it only
>>>> considered
>>> unchecked points, i.e. points not on the route.
>>>>
>>>> Second: Regardless of how the data is entered, there needs to be a
>>>> way to activate the currently loaded checkpoint list as a rrute. By
>>>> default, the next checkpoint to go to would be the first one in the
>>>> list, although the user could use the "go to" function (see first
>>>> feature) to tell loadstone where he actually is on the route.
>>>> Loadstone would only monitor the next checkpoint (the selected item)
>>>> until the user gets there, at which time it'd to an implicit "go to"
>>>> to the next item in the list. It could even warn the user if he's
>>>> moving
>>> away from the point.
>>>>
>>>> Third: Defining a route is probably as simple as adding a point to
>>>> the end of the currently loaded checkpoint list whenever it's checked.
>>>> That's probably already the way it's done. A useful enhancement,
>>>> though, would be the ability to check a point while it's being
>>>> defined. Adding this to the save point submenu would be convenient.
>>>>
>>>> Fourth: For recording a trip it needs to be possible to both
>>>> automatically and manually add points. Automatic points clearly need
>>>> to be added each time the user changes direction, but should probably
>>>> also be added at a regular time interval even if the user doesn't
>>>> change direction. The name for an automatically added point should
>>>> begin with the word "auto", and include the time it was added as well
>>>> as the direction in which the user was moving (the new direction if a
>>>> change). This information, in conjuction with the "explore"
>>>> option (see first feature) will help the user later when he goes
>>>> through the points to give them more meaningful names. A manually
>>>> added point should have a similar default name except that it should
>>>> begin with "user" rather than "auto", but should also allow the user
>>>> to immediately assign a more meaningful name.
>>>>
>>>> That's my initial proposal in order to get some discussion going.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Dave Mielke           | 2213 Fox Crescent | I believe that the Bible is
>>> the
>>>> Phone: 1-613-726-0014 | Ottawa, Ontario   | Word of God. Please contact
>> me
>>>> EMail: dave at mielke.cc | Canada  K2A 1H7   | if you're concerned about
>>> Hell.
>>>> http://FamilyRadio.com/                   | http://Mielke.cc/bible/
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